Hi, my name is Vincent Long, and I posted the question, How important is absolute obedience to God’s Word? Let me express my thanks for the answers that I have received. I have found them very good indeed. But I may have asked it wrong. Please let me ask it another way.
If someone deliberately disobeys any portion of God’s word, are they actually saved? Is it even possible to disregard parts of God’s word and be saved? Is it possible to believe in false doctrine and be saved. The reason that I am asking these questions is that the pastor in the last Church I attended, when asked these questions, gave me answers that truly troubled me. When I asked him if it was possible to believe in false doctrine and be saved. He said it depended on the false doctrine, which I took to mean that you could believe in false doctrine and be saved. He also said it was not necessary to teach people on the doctrine of Baptism, if a person wanted to be Baptised, just come and we’ll baptise you. I must confess these things troubled me greatly. I look forward to hearing your answers to this post.
Hello Vincent! You have asked a big question and an important one!
Historically, the Church has required that a person affirm the essential doctrines expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed for a person to be considered a Christian. These are confessions of faith that have been accepted by the majority of Christians since the early days of the church. Therefore, to be considered a “confessing Christian,” most denominations would require you to accept these doctrines as true. Theologians
As to the question of salvation . . I think Paul summarizes it best in Romans 10:9–10, which says “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” Salvation is not based on a flawless understanding of every detail of systematic theology, but of full allegiance to the Lordship and death and resurrection of Christ! What a gift it is that “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).
That said, doctrine matters! Theology is important! Just because our salvation does not depend on precise theological definitions does not mean it isn’t important to study what the Bible teaches about God, humanity, our bodies, our communities, and a godly life! Doctrine guides us through discipleship to Christ. To be disciples together is what we believe God desires for His people! It is for that reason that we seek to have good orthodoxy (Christian teaching) and orthopraxy (Christian living).
How those things are taught in the local church is the purview of the leadership of that church. It is encouraging to hear that your church was willing to baptize those who desired to be baptized, but I would not say it is wrong to ask or instruct believers to be baptized. In fact, in the Bible, there are times that the apostles instructed people to be baptized with water.
Two such examples of this are in Acts. At Pentecost, in Acts 2:38, Peter said to the people, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” After the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:47–48, Peter asked, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
I hope this is somewhat helpful and welcome input from other community members to help tackle this great question!
Hi @vincent, thank you for asking this original question and for your encouragement. I’m grateful you chose to follow-up with another question!
Think about the Apostle Peter. He denied Jesus at the cross and contradicted the gospel in Antioch (Galatians 2:11-21). Yet, clearly, he is saved! He wrote a couple books of the Bible and his example is given to us to imitate in the gospels and Acts.
In fact, all of the disciples disobey Jesus and believe false things as they are literally and internally following him in the Gospels. Yet, we are still to understand that, excepting Judas, they were saved.
The pattern of the Scriptures is not that people meet God and are perfected so that they always believe and do what God wants. Rather, they are transformed by God’s love, and then slowly, imperfectly, and often half-heartedly, they learn to place God first in their lives, and to enjoy the life that God offers, so that they are increasingly wise, aligned with God, and resembling the character of Christ.
As to baptizing people, I think Matthew 28:18-20, among other passages, gives us direction:
Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Baptism is part of the relational process of discipling someone. As they fall in love with Jesus, and decided to imitate his ways, and accept his authority, they will want to publicly demonstrate their allegiance to Jesus to their community, and that is what baptism is for. Baptism is not the important thing - the faith-filled desire to be like Jesus and to communicate your loyalty to him is what matters, and the physical act of baptism expresses this, spiritually, socially, and relationally.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and from others!
Hi Michaela, thank you for your answer. While I agree with the things you have said in your answer, I think that you have left out the most important parts of the passage in Acts 2:38, which I believe can give people the wrong understanding. In verse 36, Peter stated *Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Then in verse 37, we read the response of the people, Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then in verse 38, Peter gives them the answer to there question. Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then in verses 41-42 we read the response of the people. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then, in verse 44, we read about the actions that came from receving the Holy Spirit, Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common. Now I could be wrong, but I am assuming that all things in common means that they all believed in the same doctrine, and not various different doctrines. Looking forward to hearing your reply. Kind Regards.
Hi Carson, thank you for your reply and insight. I would like to bring your attention to your opening comment. He denied Jesus at the cross and contradicted the gospel in Antioch ([Galatians 2:11-21] While Peter did beyond doubt deny Jesus at the Cross, when he heard the rooster crow three times, he immediately wept and repented. It is well to remember that at that time Peter had not yet received the Holy Spirit. You also stated that Peter contradicted the Gospel in Antioch. I must totally disagree with this statement. After reading this whole passage, I cannot find any such contradiction. You will find in Galatians 2:12 that yes, Peter hid from the men of James for fear of what they would think of him for eating with the Gentiles. “Ga 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.”
This is not a contradiction of Scripture. He made a mistake, just like everyone before him and all of us that came after him. Peter was a Sinner, so he was prone to making mistakes. He was called out on this to his face and immediately changed his way, and again we see Peter’s repentance.
(In fact, all of the disciples disobey Jesus and believe false things as they are literally and internally following him in the Gospels.)
I’ve quoted part of your comment above as I would like you to shed more light on this, please. You said “In Fact” that all the disciples disobeyed Jesus and believed false things. Can you show me the Facts behind this statement, because I do not see anything in scripture to support this statement.
Hi @vincent, thanks for your response.
I was referring to Galatians 2:14,
But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel, I told Cephas in front of everyone, …
I agree with you, when challenged by Paul, he changed course.
But, at the same time, there was a period where Peter was “deviating from the truth of the gospel” - and he was still a Christian, still a leader in the church, still beloved by God.
As for the disciples in the Gospels, there are many occasions. For instance, in Mark 8, Jesus rebukes the disciples and asks if they have hardened hearts (Mark 8:17). They weren’t understanding his teaching.
A bit later, they tell Jesus they tried to stop someone who was driving out demons, and Jesus tells them not to do that (Mark 9:38-41).
Then people try to bring children to Jesus and the disciples interfere. Jesus gets indignant and tells them they’ve got it backwards - they need to receive the kingdom like children (Mark 10:13-16)!
Reflecting on these passages, it seems to me the disciples aren’t understanding who Jesus is or what it means to follow him. They’re often confused and doing the opposite of what Jesus wants. Jesus corrects them, and they change course. But it is an ongoing learning process of imperfect people trying to follow Jesus.
And that’s what I think our lives are like - imperfect people who sometimes believe and do the wrong things, or fail to believe the right things and to obey Jesus.
Thank you for your response. Those are some wonderful insights. I think it is also good to remember that none of the apostles had received the Holy Spirit at that point, which may have had a bearing on their lack of ability to understand.
Kind regards, Vincent Long.
Hi @vincent, thanks for the kind and generous response.
Michael Wilkins is considered to be one of the preeminent scholars on discipleship. He writes:
The Evangelists presented a realistic portrait of the disciples. They had strengths and weaknesses, victories and defeats. Jesus took ordinary men and women and called them to salvation, to service, and to growth in godliness. While the Evangelists unanimously testify to the imperfections of the disciples, both of the larger group and of the Twelve, they also testify to their growth. The realistic portrayal of good and bad traits in the disciples was intended to be an example to the church of how Jesus helped his disciples to grow (Following the Master).
It’s true that the disciples hadn’t received the Holy Spirit, but they did have some kind of spiritual union with God. Consider John 15 - Jesus is speaking in the present tense, “You are already clean…Remain in me and I in you…I am the vine, you are the branches.”
As I continue to meditate on the gospels, and the persistent imperfections of the disciples who are sincerely trying to follow Jesus, it is helping me to understand God.
A post was split to a new topic: What does the Bible teach about women pastors and elders?
I am a little late to the discussion, and I am so thankful that @vincent raised the question again and provided its context. It’s an important issue, as it impacts our decisions regarding whom we choose to follow as our mentors. I appreciate the historical understanding shared by @Michaela on what it means to be a Christian, as well as the insights from @Carson on how even true disciples of Christ sometimes need correction in their teachings.
I think at the heart of the matter is also the question of salvation of those who propagate false doctrines. The Bible has strong words of judgment and condemnation for false teachers (2 Peter 2:1-3, 10-22; Jude 4, 12-13). This raises the question of how false teachers differ from true disciples of Christ who are, for a time, swayed by false teachings. As @vincent shared, humility and repentance when confronted with the truth help set immature believers apart from imposters. I think 1 John 1:8-9 and 1 John 3:6-10, taken together, help us discern between true and false disciples. A true disciple acknowledges their sin, is willing to repent, and receives God’s forgiveness. A true child of God does not make a practice of sinning. On the other hand, a false believer does not repent, makes a practice of sinning, and ultimately loses salvation.
I want to be clear here; I am not saying that salvation is based on our works, but rather on a righteousness that comes through faith in Christ. However, by their works, imposters reveal where their faith truly lies. They may take the name of Jesus, and their message may sound like good news, but their lives indicate a set of beliefs that stand in contradiction to the core truths of Christianity. For example, they may not rely on the Holy Spirit (Matt 7:15-23), may seek to manipulate the spiritual realm through material means (Acts 8:18-24), may rely on man-made laws for their righteousness (Gal 5:4), may take away the hope of resurrection (2 Tim 2:17-18), may follow doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1-2), may use it for their own gain (Titus 1:10-16), may deny that Christ appeared in the flesh (1 John 4:2-3), or may pervert the grace of God (Jude 4).
As I looked at some of these New Testament examples of false teachers who are warned of judgment, I noticed that either by their actions or teachings, they show that they do not know the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the incarnation, the cross, or the hope of the resurrection. In other words, they reject the creeds that @Michaela pointed out. If eternal life is about knowing Christ (John 17:3), it must begin here on earth. False teachers who undermine trust in God’s word, God’s nature, and the hope of the gospel lead people away from God and so are warned of judgement. I don’t think the judgment is from the lack of absolute obedience per se, but rather a disobedience that reflects a denial of Christ and the gospel. To me, this is the essence of the warning in Hebrews 10:26-29 for those who continue in deliberate sin.
With regard to the pastor’s comments on the doctrine of Baptism, I agree with @Carson’s comments. Baptism is to be encouraged according to the teachings of scripture, though it is not necessary for salvation. I think in Acts 2:38, baptism was encouraged as an outward sign of faith in Christ. As the thief on the cross was promised paradise even without baptism, I believe that water baptism is not necessary for salvation (Luke 23:43).
Thanks again for the question which just shows your love for the truth and His righteousness. Blessings.
Hi### Lakshmi MehtaIt is a true pleasure to read your reply. I completely agree with everything you have shared. Jesus gives us the means to identify false teachers and false believers. In Matthew 7:16 Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits. In verses 17-18, Jesus gives us a very simple way of are identifying True teachers from false teachers. Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. A true believer cannot teach false doctrine, but a false believer can quite easily teach false doctrine.
Then again, Jesus reminds us in Matthew 7:20, Therefore by their fruits you will know them. The fruit that we have to share with the world is the perfect word of God. Again. No true believer will add to or take away one single word from the perfect WORD of God. In Revelation 22:18-19, we are warned of the consequences of doing so. There are so many verses and passages in Scripture that warn of the consequences of disobeying God’s word, it is not possible to either miss them or to misunderstand. I believe when we hear someone teaching false doctrine, whether it is a member of the congregation or even the Pastor, we have a duty or responsibility to bring it to their attention, and try to teach them more correctly the Word of God. There is no doubt that this can sometimes end with us being persecuted. But this is a good thing; we should not let fear stop us from standing firmly for the truth of God’s WORD.
We should not in any way be terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Philippians 1:28-29.
May the Lord bless you greatly
Lakshmi Mehtaand may His perfect WORD be a lamp to your feet and a light to your path.
Vincent Long.
Hello @vincent,
Thank you for your kind reply, prayers and encouragement to stand for the truth when we encounter false doctrine even with opposition. It’s true that only with a sound understanding of the Word can we begin to recognize when it is being used to serve personal agendas. At times, I have found that discerning the fruit can be challenging, and in those moments, we may need to lean on the wisdom and guidance of others. I have found comfort in Phil 1: 6 during confusing times. Blessings in Christ.
Hi Vincent, I 100% agree! It is foolishness to instruct those who are not seeking Christ to be baptized. In the portion of the story you shared, the people repenting asked what to do and the answer was (1) repentance, (2) be baptized, (3) receive the Holy Spirit.
I do believe they continued steadfastly according to the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, but this was very early in the life of the Church and so we must be careful not to place certain beliefs and teachings in that category that would have arisen later during and after the ministries of Paul.
As to the question of “having all things in common” in verse 44, I have found that most scholars interpret that as conveying the sense of community and mutual sharing of resources for the people whose lives were changed at Pentecost.
It reflects a Spirit-driven unity that broke down social and economic barriers, making sure no one was in need. C.K. Barrett notes that Luke’s description is more a theological ideal of harmony than a literal economic system (Acts of the Apostles, ICC, 1994). Beverly Roberts Gaventa likewise emphasizes that this practice is an outward sign of the Spirit’s transformative power, linking fellowship in worship to fellowship in daily life (Acts of the Apostles, Abingdon, 2003).
This sharing resonates with the Jewish covenant traditions like the Leviticus 25 Jubilee laws, which envisioned economic care for the poor. Joseph Fitzmyer draws these connections explicitly, showing how Luke presents the Jerusalem church as the Spirit-filled restoration of Israel (The Acts of the Apostles, AYB, 1998). In other words, “all things in common” should be understood as a theological portrait of the unity, generosity, and covenant renewal inaugurated by the Spirit at Pentecost.
Hi
Hi, Michaela Rae,
I agree with the points that you have made. The believers had a fellowship and a unity which the unbelievers took notice of. People in general were moved by the fellowship, care, and love that the Church had for each other. They showed the world how things could be, and should be, if people could only have love in their hearts for one another.
But I believe that all the believers believed in the same Gospel, and the same doctrine without variance, and that is what allowed them to accomplish this, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
I am sure that you are aware that there are three areas of doctrine which have caused great controversy and divisions in the church today:
1. Speaking in tongues. 2. Head coverings. 3. Women in leadership roles, pastors/Elders
I would love to hear your thoughts on these.
Kind Regards
Vincent Long
Hey Vincent! I completely respect your perspective on this, but do not share it. I believe that the very existence of the epistles in the New Testament reflects the reality that there were differences of opinion, belief, and practice among early Christians. Paul and Peter addressed many but not all instances of disagreement and disunity that early churches had, seeking to bring them together in brotherly love.
The Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 lets us listen in on just one of those conversations among the apostles and brethren. As those present, including Paul, Barnabas, James, and Peter, discussed the issue of whether one must become Jewish to be a Christian. In this account, various members of the council shared personal stories, examined the Scriptures, and together came to the conclusion recounted in 15:23–29.
Just as there were differences of perspective and deviation from the teaching of the apostles (that was corrected through letters and church discipline) in the early church, there are any number of topics about which Christians disagree today, including the ones you listed. Faithful believers have different understandings about a lot of secondary issues, like head coverings and women’s leadership, but can still call one another brother and sister.
In conversations like this, I echo the 17th-century theologian Peter Meiderlin, who encouraged believers to have “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
Thank you for your reply, I am very grateful.