Do you believe in the rapture

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Do you believe that the bible is the inspired word of God? What do I mean by that; If Jesus says something do you believe it, or do you put church doctrine and mans traditions before the word of God?

Here is an example. Matthew 13:24-30 The Parable of the wheat and the tares.

All verses copied from BibleHub.com

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus is going to explain this for us. In Verses 36-43

There are several points I want to bring out from this teaching.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is Jesus speaking here to his disciples and also to us today.

Verse 37. He “Jesus” answered; (Just so we are clear Jesus is doing the talking and the teaching,) the Son of man “Jesus”

Verse 38. The field is the world The good seed are the children of the Kingdom. The tares are the children of the wicked one. 38. The enemy that sowed them is the Devil.

Verse 39. The harvest is the end of the world; and The reapers are the angles. Hows angles,(reapers)? God’s.

Verse 40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Who is gathered out of the world first? The tares! They are gathered and burned in the fire. So shall it be at the end of this world. (this world age, the world as we know it today.)

Verse 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

  1. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

S o what was just said here in these 2 verses. 1.Jesus sends out his angles and they gather everything that is evil out of the kingdom; this earth, where there are only 2 seeds 1 the seed of the children of the wicked one Satan and 2 the seed of the Righteous of Jesus.

In God eyes as it should be in ours there are only 2 type of people on the earth. The children of God, and the children of Satan. God does not look at us by race, color of skin or any other physical differences we may have. The only question He asks is how is your master, who do you serve Me or Satan. This is the standard we should have also.

43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Do you have ears to hear God’s word with. After the children of Satan are removed not before; Those of us that are left here on earth as it says in 1st Corinthians 15. We that are left shall be changed in a moment in the twinkle of an eye at the LAST “THE 7th” TRUMP. We shall all (that is the good, the bad, the ----, The true Christiani and everybody else) be changed into spirit bodies because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Zechariah 14, as well as Acts 1 Jesus is going to return to the Mt. Of Olives and when His foot touches that mountain top it will split in to making a 12x60 sq. mile valley where He will set up His earthly kingdom for ever.

So question #1 do you believe in the rapture?

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Hi @keith3,

Uncommon Pursuit is a community for people who love God’s Word! In the words of The Cape Town Commitment:

We love God’s Word in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, echoing the joyful delight of the Psalmist in the Torah, ‘I love your commands more than gold… Oh how I love your law.’ We receive the whole Bible as the Word of God, inspired by God’s Spirit, spoken and written through human authors. We submit to it as supremely and uniquely authoritative, governing our belief and our behaviour. We testify to the power of God’s Word to accomplish his purpose of salvation. We affirm that the Bible is the final written word of God, not surpassed by any further revelation, but we also rejoice that the Holy Spirit illumines the minds of God’s people so that the Bible continues to speak God’s truth in fresh ways to people in every culture.

(The Cape Town Commitment and The Nicene Creed are our two statements of faith).

You raised a tricky question. You asked,

Now here’s the problem:

Should I accept your tradition of what this passage means?

Or should I listen to what Jesus said in these passages?

That is, what if Jesus disagrees with your interpretation of his words?

Alternatively, if I said that my interpretation is the same as God’s, would that make it so?

My point is that we have a deep reverence for God’s word, but that does not imply that we must accept another person’s interpretation as identical to God’s word.

In this particular passage, D.A. Carson points out that the work of discipleship is to return to Jesus and ask him to help us understand what he is saying. That is, we read, “His disciples approached him and said, “Explain to us the parable…”

As a matter of methodology, then, in Uncommon Pursuit’s community, we want to keep returning to Jesus and asking him to explain to us what his word means.

In terms of the meaning of this parable, I think we’re overreading it to see this teaching the rapture. The point, it seems, is that at the end of time, God will judge what is sometimes unclear to us. We are not always sure who is righteous and who is lawless.

For instance, I think of Ravi Zacharias. Even until a few months after his death, it seemed obvious to me (and millions of others) that he lived a righteous life. But then the truth was more fully exposed, and we had evidence of his lying, bullying, and sexual assault of multiple women. Some saw this earlier (I regret that I did not). Even as there is both good seed and weeds in the church in this age, and that is distressing, we can trust that one day God will set things right.

Unless I came to this passage expecting it to be about the rapture, it is hard for me to see how this passage would lead me to believe in the rapture.

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Hello @keith3,

A lot of people are very curious about the timelines and details of how the end times will unravel. Before considering the question of how and whether the rapture will take place, I think it’s important to keep in mind that not all prophecy can be accurately interpreted before the specific event unfolds. Consider how the Lord responded to the prophet Daniel in Dan 12:8-9 and Peter’s words in 1 Pet 1:10-12. By the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter who had initially denied Jesus gained more understanding about the prophecies after the resurrection (Acts 2). What I find comforting as I read the book of Revelation is that the person who is blessed is not the one who is able to decode all prophecy accurately but the one who keeps what is written in it (Rev 1:3, Rev 22:7,22). A person’s faithfulness to Christ does not depend on accurately understanding the sequence of events of the future.

Now coming back to your question about rapture, there are committed Christians of different denominations who have different understandings of rapture. You might enjoy reading this essay, “The rapture question” by Alan S. Bandy that examines some of the arguments for the rapture as a separate event and as a simultaneous event with the Second Coming of Jesus.

Several factors contribute to differences in interpretation of scripture beyond selfish interests or a lack of reverence for God’s word. Some of these factors may be the interpretative lens used (literal vs symbolic), the view of held about the kingdom of God, the view of church and nation of Israel.

While the most common understanding of rapture is pre-tribulation rapture, the author Alan Bandy points out first that there are four different views of rapture:

Pre-Tribulation Rapture: This view maintains the rapture occurs when Jesus comes secretly to gather the church prior a seven-year Great Tribulation that precedes the return of Christ to earth.
Mid-Tribulation Rapture: This is similar to the pre-tribulation view except that it locates the rapture after the first three-and-half years at the point when the Anti-Christ assumes power.
Pre-Wrath Rapture: This position argues that the rapture will occur toward the end of the tribulation before the outpouring of God’s wrath with the bowl judgments (Rev. 16) prior to the return of Christ.
Post-Tribulation: This view sees the rapture as occurring simultaneous to the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

Following are some reasons for the view of pre-tribulation rapture in the essay -

Dispensationalists argue that the rapture and return of Christ are separate events because they focus on the dissimilarities between so-called rapture passages and return passages.

The reason why the return of Christ is divided into two phases or stages is because many of the references to the return of Christ are positive and hopeful for the believers, but many references are negative and wrathful for the unbelievers. Revelation 6:16 depicts the cataclysmic judgments of the end times as the wrath of Christ. Whereas, Revelation 19:7- 9 depicts the Church as the bride of the Lamb so it will not be subject to his wrath to be poured out on an unbelieving world.

They would argue that the great tribulation is the wrath of the lamb (Rev. 6:17-17; 11:18; 14:10; 15:1, 7; 16:1; 19:15). Because the tribulation is equated with God’s wrath, it is very different from any tribulation the church may have experienced during the “church age.”

They also maintain that the Great Tribulation pertains to God’s return to dealing with Israel as his chosen people so that the church must be removed first.

Considering Daniel 9:24 (which Jesus refers to in Matt 24) was originally give to the nation of Israel and the promise in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 of being saved from God’s wrath, its reasonable why one may believe that the church will be delivered from the tribulation by the rapture.

The author then presents arguments against the pre-tribulation rapture view.

The Greek word parousia, meaning “presence,” “arrival,” or “coming,” is used to refer to the second coming of Christ throughout the New Testament (Matt. 24:27; 1Cor. 15:23; Jas. 5:8; 1Jn. 2:28). The problem with this interpretation (i.e two-stage coming of Jesus) is that everywhere else parousia occurs in the Thessalonian correspondence it unambiguously refers to the visible return of Christ to the earth (1Thes. 2:19; 3:13; 5:23; 2Thes. 2:1, 8). In 1 Thessalonians 3:13, refers to “coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints,” which clearly indicates the second coming. In addition, parousia is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, when Paul declares that the Lord Jesus will defeat of the man of lawlessness by “the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.” If both of these examples refer to his actual second coming to earth, there is absolutely nothing in the context to suggest that 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 should be taken any differently as all the other instances of parousia in Thessalonians.

There are some other reasons presented but I thought the article is a good starting point for a lay person who is trying to understand rapture. Personally, I don’t have a firm stand yet and I am still in the process of learning. There are several books like “The four views on the book of revelation” that should be helpful to have more of an informed discussion on the topic.

Hope this helps a bit in your understanding of rapture while appreciating the angles from which different faithful believers come from.

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Hi @keith3

Thanks for the question! I admit that I find this topic fairly overwhelming, because as @Carson said, there are so many church traditions with their own interpretations of how and what the rapture will look like. Just because one person may reject one viewpoint doesn’t necessary mean they reject scripture, they just interpret it differently. Regarding the rapture, there’s a variety of interpretations: pre-tribulation rapture, mid tribulation rapture, post-tribulation rapture etc … Some say the rapture will be the Christians going first, others say the rapture will be the unbelievers first, as in this passage that you’ve brought to our attention. I’ve heard it preached from scripture both ways.

Interestingly, something that I hadn’t realised is the specific idea of the rapture as being separate to the resurrection of believers has come about in more recent church history, as this article ‘The Rapture Question’ from Gospel Coalition (linked below) says,

While the resurrection of believers is a long-established doctrine in the Christian faith and is firmly rooted in scripture, the specific terminology of a rapture came into popular parlance in the nineteenth century with the rise of Premillennialism and Dispensational theology.

So the differing views are:

  1. Pre-Tribulation Rapture: This view maintains the rapture occurs when Jesus comes secretly to gather the church prior a seven-year Great Tribulation that precedes the return of Christ to earth.
  2. Mid-Tribulation Rapture: This is similar to the pre-tribulation view except that it locates the rapture after the first three-and-half years at the point when the Anti-Christ assumes power.
  3. Pre-Wrath Rapture: This position argues that the rapture will occur toward the end of the tribulation before the outpouring of God’s wrath with the bowl judgments (Rev. 16) prior to the return of Christ.
  4. Post-Tribulation: This view sees the rapture as occurring simultaneous to the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

I have been aware of the different views regarding the rapture for some time. I find that they all use scripture to support their views in different ways. I haven’t yet devoted enough time to really grapple with the details of each view. The article linked gives a nice summation of the various perspectives, and which parts of scripture these viewpoints are primarily based on.

I know a few people who spend a lot of time studying this topic, and have very strong views one way or the other. As I said, I find it fairly overwhelming to understand so I’ve preferred to settle with the notion that Christ may return anytime, and I had better get on sharing the gospel with as many people that I can in the meantime. I appreciated a final comment in the conclusion of the article I’ve referenced:

Regardless of what one believes about the rapture or its timing, it is not a matter of orthodoxy and heresy if believers disagree. A person’s fidelity to Christ and theological orthodoxy does not depend on belief in a two-stage return of Christ or a singular return. When Christ returns and the church is with him in glory, nobody will be disappointed or argue about how or when it all occurred.

I appreciated you raising this!

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Hi @alison, both of us posted independently very similar responses at about the same time. Thats interesting! :slightly_smiling_face:

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Ooo very similar :grinning:

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Hi friends,

I asked Dr. Carmen Joy Imes about the rapture. Here’s how I set up the question and her answer:

In her answer, she explains both Matthew 24:36-41 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But, just as importantly, she also shows how the doctrine of rapture goes against the grain of the whole story of Scripture.

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I have heard of this explanation provided in the video before that those who are “taken” are those who are judged. I am trying to figure a few things right now though there are many more unanswered questions in my mind.

  1. In John 14:1-3, Jesus promises that He will come back and “take” his disciples to be where He is.

  2. The wrath of God unleashed by Jesus Christ takes place on earth. Rev 6: 15-16. So those who are judged are those on earth.

  3. There is a difference between ‘tribulation’ and ‘wrath of God’ in my mind. We are promised to be saved from God’s judgment but not tribulation.

  4. I also wonder if the wrath of God comes like a “thief in the night” for the unbeliever but not for the believer. Its the unbeliever’s world that changes suddenly from “Peace and safety” to destruction at Christ’s coming.

  5. What is God’s wrath and when does it begin? Is it at the final judgment at Jesus’s coming or at opening of the first seal? When Jesus opens the first seal in Rev 6:1-2, is it the beginning of a 7 year tribulation or beginning of God’s wrath? Based on calculations from some scholars, Daniel’s seventieth seven are most likely literal 7 years beginning with the abomination of desolation.

  6. What did Jesus mean by “escape/flight” in Matt 24:20? Is this escape same as the escape promised in 1 Thess 5 or Rev 3:10? “Escape” in Matt 24 seems to be referring to the final judgement coming upon unbelievers.

  7. What is the first resurrection in Rev 20:5? Why is it called ‘first’ if rapture has already taken place?

So to sum up, though I have questions, I am leaning toward just a single coming of Christ but I do think believers will be taken and not left behind.

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Hi Lakshmi,

I am so grateful you raised these questions. They are prompting me to study the Bible more.

I am going to start a new discussion topic about John 14:1-3. As we have time and interest, perhaps we can continue to dialogue about the other passages.

As one comment on those, regarding the seals in Revelation, I thought I’d mention Revelation for the Rest of Us by Dr. Scot McKnight. He writes,

It is the Lamb who alone is worthy to open the seals and who therefore unleashes the seal judgments (5:1–14). The Lamb opens the judgment seals in 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, and 8:1. The seventh seal opens the seven trumpets (8:1–2).
…
A mistake is sometimes made by those who press these judgments into literal earthly realities in which God supposedly makes havoc of his own creation. Rather, these are all—each and in totality—graphic images of judgment on the dragon, the wild things, and Babylon. These judgments have a clear purpose as well: the elimination of evil in the world so the people of God can dwell in peace in the new Jerusalem. They spring from John’s vision, which he connects to the plagues and the prophets, and they stir the imagination of the oppressed in their hope for justice and of the sinful as a warning that God will eventually pay back all injustice (117).
…
The three times seven judgments are not lurid chronological timelines of revenge, but are three separable, but at times overlapping depictions, of God establishing justice so that the evils of Babylon disappear and the goodness of new Jerusalem becomes a reality (117, 120).

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